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    POAČeská i zahraniční psychiatrická léčba
    Diskuse na téma psychiatrická léčba, okrajově i psychologická pomoc. Zkušenosti pacientů či rodinných příslušníků, známých s léčbou, hodnocení jednotlivých zdravotnických zařízení, oddělení, lékařů. Pozitivní i vedlejší účinky léčby. Alternativní či podpůrná léčba, případně pracovní terapie, arteterapie a pod.
    rozbalit záhlaví
    POA
    POA --- ---
    SHEALA: zahlasovala jsme pro založení tvojí diskuze
    SHEALA
    SHEALA --- ---
    [ SHEALA @ nyx :: zadosti o zalozeni klubu - vsechny pohromade ]
    tak jsem dala zadost o zalozeni nove diskuse, bude bez fesakovych identit a spamu. Prosila bych vas o zahlasovani pro diskusi, a to se dela tak ze kliknete na PRO zalozeni :-)
    ECLECTICA
    ECLECTICA --- ---
    POA: přimlouvala bych se zároveň za změnu názvu této diskuse. Pri případ, že by někdo hledal seriózní diskusi o psychiatrii - a ta stávající je všechno, jen ne seriózní.
    POA
    POA --- ---
    ZUZKAOU: to klidně může.. já ID FF v ničem neomezuju
    ZUZKAOU
    ZUZKAOU --- ---
    POA: a nebylo by jednodušší, aby si Fesak založil vlastní klub, zaměřený na informace ohledně toho, jak generalizovat vedlejší účinky zyprexy na cokoliv, co se prodává v lékárně?
    POA
    POA --- ---
    požádala jsem o založení nového klubu, kde bude mít FF RO

    jestli to vedení schválí, tak vám bude vyhověno v požadavcích aby byl klub i bez něj... ale tento zůstane bez omezení diskutujících
    FESAKFLOYD
    FESAKFLOYD --- ---
    MARKYSHA: to je otazka lecby, ucinne terapie schizofrenie. alternativa prakticky neni dostupna. tvojemu otci ji nikdy nenabidli. nedostal sanci.

    pokud tveho kamarada nespravila lecba neuroleptiky v casovem useku, cilize bere neuroleptika chronicky, ma vyhlidku na progresivni poskozeni mozku. to mu urcite nerekli. kdyby to vedel, mozna by si zvolil ucinnou terapii, a pak by se odesel bez neuroleptik.
    POA
    POA --- ---
    MARKYSHA: já mám kamaráda, je schizofrenik a má plný invalidní důchod. Má cca 55 let. Odhaduju, že se léčí minimálně 20 let. Je ženatý, žije normálně s rodinou. Naprosto spořádaně.

    Se souhlasem a vědomím lékaře už dost let nebere žádné léky, chodí pravidelně na kontroly. Žije relativně normální život. Není schopen se plnohodnotně zapojit do pracovního procesu, ale v rodině funguje úplně normálně
    MARKYSHA
    MARKYSHA --- ---
    FESAKFLOYD: můj otec taky odmítal léky, že mu žerou duši a dneska je nezvěstnej, poslední stopa v jakési ubytovně pro bezdomovce. Je mu 52 a má pětiletýho syna. Za to kamarád se schízou, které léky bere, chodí na vejšká a žije normální život.
    FESAKFLOYD
    FESAKFLOYD --- ---
    samozrejme ze rocni lecba poskodi mozek. vzdycky. je to tragedie.

    LIESKO_VEC: léčkýý.. léčkýýý.. pojďte si na léký... to jsou ti dobraci, pusheri.

    LIESKO_VEC
    LIESKO_VEC --- ---
    DAW: a pomaha jim to? protoze pry to vetsinou ti lidi nechteji brat.
    Taky jsem AP vysadila, protoze jsem nemela z nich dobry pocit - subjektivni.
    Neberu to uz dlouho a nic mi neni.

    Verim, ze existuji doktori, kteri kdyz vidi z blazince nejakou psychotickou diagnozu, tak moc o tom cloveku nepremysleji a proste nasadi rocni lecbu a hotovo. V nekterych pripadech opravdu muzou ublizit.

    Ale vim, ze existuji i doktori, kteri se podivaji i na toho cloveka a umi si udelat nazor v prubehu doby a do leku pacienta nenuti. Coz je moc dobre.
    FESAKFLOYD
    FESAKFLOYD --- ---
    Brain imaging studies

    Critics of psychiatric drugs, such as Peter Breggin have long been arguing
    that neuroleptic drugs damage the brain (Breggin 1993b, 1997).
    He argued that the reduced brain volume found in patients with schizophrenia
    was evidence of drug-induced damage, rather than the official
    explanation that it was attributable to the process of schizophrenia. Two
    new studies support Breggin’s interpretation. In 2005 results of the
    largest ever brain-imaging study of people with first episode psychosis
    was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry. The study was
    funded by Eli Lilly the makers of the ‘atypical’ neuroleptic drug olanzapine
    (Zyprexa) and involved 161 patients who were randomised to
    treatment with haloperidol or olanzapine (Lieberman et al. 2005b).

    Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans were conducted at the start of
    the randomised treatment and then periodically thereafter and compared
    with scans from a matched group of 58 controls. The results
    demonstrate that even after 12 weeks of haloperidol treatment there
    was a statistically significant reduction in the grey matter in the brain3
    compared with controls (p.005). After one year the difference was
    even greater (p.003). The results show that olanzapine-treated subjects
    also had a reduction of overall grey matter volume after one year
    (p .03) with evidence of reductions in frontal, parietal and occipital
    lobes of the brain. The olanzapine-treated group also showed reduced
    volume of the caudate nucleus after one year compared with controls
    (p.003) and compared with haloperidol-treated patients (p.02). The
    text of the study glosses over the effects of olanzapine, reflecting the
    interests of the sponsors. In fact, the authors only briefly admit the possibility
    that the effects may have been due to the drugs, focusing instead
    on the possibility that olanzapine may prevent the decline in brain volume
    associated with schizophrenia better than haloperidol!

    However a second shorter study confirms that these effects are most
    probably attributable to the drugs.
    A group of researchers at the Institute
    of Psychiatry in London studied a group of 84 patients with first episode
    psychosis after 8–9 weeks of neuroleptic drug treatment (Dazzan et al.
    2005). They found that compared with patients who were psychotic but
    not taking neuroleptics, patients who were taking older or ‘typical’
    antipsychotics had reduced volume of grey matter in several brain areas
    and enlargement of the basal ganglia. Both findings were significantly
    associated with neuroleptic dose. Correlation with dose is traditionally
    taken as strong evidence of a causal effect in medical epidemiology.
    Atypical antipsychotics were associated only with enlargement of the
    thalamus,4 a finding that was also correlated with dose. The exposure
    period may have been too short at nine weeks to detect other changes
    in this group. The findings may also have been more marked if the
    comparison group was restricted to patients who had never had neuroleptics,
    since about half of the group had had previous exposure.
    Traditionally the atrophy of the brain observed in people with schizophrenia
    has been attributed to the process of schizophrenia itself and
    has been regarded as confirmatory evidence that schizophrenia is a
    brain disease involving neurodegeneration. Research on brain structure
    barely mentions the possibility that drugs may produce or exaggerate
    brain changes even though most studies involve patients who have
    received many years of neuroleptic and other drug treatment. For
    example, a study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry in 2005
    revealed substantial deficits of grey matter (nerve cell bodies) and white

    matter (nerve fibres) in brains of long-term patients diagnosed with
    schizophrenia compared with age-matched healthy controls. Multiple
    brain regions were affected including the frontal cortex, the cerebellum,
    the temporal cortex, the basal ganglia, the thalamus and parts of the
    parietal lobe (McDonald et al. 2005). Patients with bipolar disorder, in
    contrast, showed deficits in white matter only. Despite the fact that all
    patients with schizophrenia were taking antipsychotic drugs and had
    most probably been taking them for a considerable time, there is no
    mention of the possibility that drug exposure might have been responsible
    for the reduced grey matter. No attempt is made to examine correlations
    between drug exposure and brain volume in the statistical
    analysis, which would have been a relatively simple procedure. The
    only mention of drugs is a sentence in the discussion section of the
    paper, which refers to the possibility that psychotropic drug exposure
    might account for white matter deficits. Why it should account for
    white matter but not grey matter deficits is not indicated and I can
    think of no plausible explanation.
    Despite the common indifference to the possibility that drugs may
    affect brain structure illustrated by this paper, several studies have looked
    at patients with a first episode of psychosis or schizophrenia, partly to try
    and minimise the confounding effects of drugs. None of these studies
    was entirely restricted to patients who had never taken psychiatric medication
    before and where it was examined, a statistically significant correlation
    between exposure to neuroleptics and reductions in grey matter
    volume was found (Cahn et al. 2002; DeLisi et al. 1991; Gur et al. 1998).
    A recent meta-analysis of some MRI studies of first episode patients compared
    with normal volunteers found reduced brain volume and enlarged
    brain ventricles (cavities) in patients with psychosis, but the authors
    emphasised that the overall differences were so small that they were
    ‘close to the limit of detection by MRI methods’ (Steen et al. 2006, p.
    510). In the Discussion section of the published paper they did acknowledge
    the possibility that the effects might be a result of early antipsychotic
    drug treatment, but this was not mentioned in the Abstract,
    which suggested that the study demonstrated that schizophrenia was a
    ‘neurodegenerative’ or ‘neurodevelopmental’ process. Curiously, the
    paper did not cite the results of the Lilly-funded first episode study of
    brain structure, and nor did they include data from this study in the
    meta-analysis, even though the first author of that study, Jeffrey
    Lieberman, was also one of the authors of the meta-analysis. Another
    review that specifically examined MRI evidence of drug-induced effects
    did include the Lilly study but it emphasised the superiority of atypical...

    Myth of Chemical Cure, J.Moncrieff (pdfko zde ke stazeni v auditku)
    ECLECTICA
    ECLECTICA --- ---
    Už prosím někdo založte tu druhou diskusi.
    FESAKFLOYD
    FESAKFLOYD --- ---
    je to chemicka lobotomie
    FESAKFLOYD
    FESAKFLOYD --- ---
    btw s takovou stadni tuposti uz jsem se dlouho nesetkal.. naposledy snad kdyz jsem sledoval tv nova v 90. letech.
    FESAKFLOYD
    FESAKFLOYD --- ---
    DAW: mas ty vubec nejake vzdelani, kvalifikaci, certifikaci pro takovou praci, jake ?
    DAW
    DAW --- ---
    No to mě poser.. ta Poa je snad stejně mimo jako FF?
    Prosímvás lidi, fakt si myslíte, že ty doktoři všem svejm pacientům vědomě ubližujou? Fakt si myslíte, že jenom vy a hrstka vyvolených pochopila skutečnou pravdu? Fakt si myslíte, že ta pravda je takhle jednoduchá?

    Prosím vyřešte si své vlastní spasitelské komplexy dřív, než půjdete zasahovat do života druhým lidem. Svojí "pomocí" jim totiž můžete dost ublížit!

    Btw. jsem člověk, kterej pracuje v komunitní péči o schizofreniky. Takže vím o čem mluvím - narozdíl od jinejch "odborníků" tady.
    PETGRIDUS
    PETGRIDUS --- ---
    FESAKFLOYD: ukaz mi nejaky clanek kde se pise ze ve tretim svete je lecba lepsi nez tady
    PETGRIDUS
    PETGRIDUS --- ---
    fesak floyd siri bludy a jakakoliv diskuze s nim je nemozna
    POA
    POA --- ---
    FESAKFLOYD: myslíš vážně? A pacient jiného typu by rád co?
    FESAKFLOYD
    FESAKFLOYD --- ---
    POA: to jsou pozadavky manickeho pacienta :)
    Kliknutím sem můžete změnit nastavení reklam