CONTINUITY: ale tak mně to přijde jako případná myšlenka, zamyslet se nad tím, jestli někdy vůbec existoval někdo, kdo se choval jinak, a jestli, zda to nebylo dáno dostupnými prostředky. pro mě z toho nutně nevyplývá, že to nejde dělat jinak. přijde mi, že takovýhle zamyšlení může člověku ušetřit čas, nebo pomoct nahlídnout situaci.
je jasný, že pokud nepůjde o životní filosofii, tak bude všechno ležet na vnějších podmínkách.

YMLADRIS: Moji frustraci způsoboval pocit, že ta diskuse jde úplně od věci.

Začalo se tu řešit staré téma, jestli vůbec kdy existoval někdo, kdo se choval jinak než takers, a jestli to nedělal jen proto, že neměl prostředky dělat něco jiného.

To mi přišlo prostě moc mimo, především proto, že kdokoli si ty dokumenty, Ismaela nebo B, přečte, seznámí se s tím, co ta definice Takera opravdu znamená, a že nemá nic společného s tím, jestli ten člověk má nebo nemá nějaké prostředky. Klidně to může být neolitickej farmář s technologií nula nic. Je to o životní filosofii, o přístupu ke světu.

A jinak, je to něco, co se prostě teď učím. Potřebuju žít v realitě, ne dávat energii do diskusí. Téměř jakýchkoliv.

ANNA: Spousta zápaďáckých schopností jsou úžasný nástroje.

Za sebe jsem naprosto pro to, si je ponechat a dál je rozvíjet, a nikdy jsem nenaznačovala, že bychom se jich měli vzdávat.

A považuju zrovna tohle za jedno z nejčastějších nedorozumění, často si lidé myslí, že změna způsobu života by znamenala vzdát se technologie, vědecké metody, rozumu a kdoví čeho všeho ještě.

Myslím si, že je to přesně naopak. Je třeba přivést tohle všechno na novou úroveň. Používat rozum VÍC. Používat ho DÁL, ale zbavit se slepého místa, které vytváří takerská filosofie, v důsledku kterého se chová NErozumně.

Ve Story of B je úžasné místo, které tohle ilustruje, momentík....

ANNA: a pro uklidnění, ty primitivy a neprimitivy řeším v reakci na místní diskuzi, ne v přímym vztahu k Ishmaelovi.

ENKIE: a navazujici otazka je jestli by nam ta alternativa stacila nekde izolovane bokem anebo potrebujeme aby se nase alternativa stala mainstreamem (tzn. system jako takovy je principielne v poradku, jen je problem ze ho neovladame MY)

CONTINUITY: dneska vecer jsem si na tebe vzpomnela v jedne souvislosti -- formulovala jsem jakysi postoj a lepik ho smahem smetl ze stolu. myslim ze ti rozumim v tom, ze pokud je pro nas nejaka vec podstatna a ostatni to nepoberou, je to vycerpavajici... jeste mi to asociuje ze jsi uz drive psala, ze u vas doma to bylo tak, ze Conti radikalka rebelka rikala alternativni veci a zbytek rodiny ji daval najevo, ze proto, ze mysli jinak, je uplne blba, nepouzitelna atd. Jak uz to tak s imprintama byva, myslim ze ti to naskakuje, kdyz lidi nesouhlasi ohledne dulezitych veci... pricemz zrovna v tomhle klubu ale si myslim, ze nesouhlas je proste jen pokusy vyjasnit si vzajemne vec co nejlepe to jde.

cimz ti nerikam ze mas diskutovat ;) jen takove volne asociace...

a poslední dnes, a nejhustější:
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The Imperial Chill
“The Imperial Chill had been an imperial preoccupation for so long that no one was counting centuries anymore. That it was genetic was obvious, of course, but this knowledge helped no one—certainly not the shivering Emperor. Every academic and scientific discipline in the realm had a chilly aspect. Every scholar and scientist was to some degree or in some sense working on the problem, which was generally agreed to be metabolic and probably dietary. There was of course nothing wrong with the emperor’s diet, but it was assumed that some adjustment (possibly quite infinitesimal) would turn the trick and give His Highness relief. There were acorn diets and apple diets—and watercress diets and zucchini diets at the other end of the alphabet. Every university depended on its subsidy for research on the temper-1 ing effects of diet and food—research that everyone knew could be effortlessly spun out till the end of time.
“One day, however, the Prime Minister called a press conference and announced that a breakthrough had been made. Of course, breakthroughs had been announced before and had always come to nothing, so no one was really worried—till they saw the look on the Prime Minister’s face. This time (that look told them) something uncomfortably new was in the offing.”
Shirin paused and asked B whether she should finish it then or wait till later.
“Oh, finish it now,” B said grumpily. “Then he can be thinking about it.”
Shirin continued.
“The Prime Minister’s announcement (that the cause of the Imperial Chill had been found) was shockingly brief—and was followed by a shocked silence, which soon became a murmur of horror, disbelief, and denial. The truth of the minister’s words was not what outraged his listeners. What outraged them was the idea that, after defeating the best minds of a dozen generations, the Emperor’s chilliness could be explained so simply. The feeling seemed to be that critical problems (like the Emperor’s chill) must absolutely have complex and impenetrable causes, and they must absolutely be difficult (and perhaps even impossible) to solve. As he wandered aimlessly through the crowd, one dazed scholar was heard to mutter over and over, ‘There are no easy answers, there are no easy answers, there are no easy answers’—not with any real conviction now but rather as if repetition might restore vitality to these familiar, comforting words.
“What was distressing them was not the fact that the cause of the chill was now known but rather the fact that it had always been known—but never as a cause. It had stared them in the face, and looking beyond it to remote and unintelligible causes, they had missed its significance.
Throughout the empire, there was literally no one who was ignorant of the fact that their shivering monarch had . . . no . . . clothes.”


“When the scholars in the capital of the Chilly Emperor had had a few days to think things over, they began to recover their wits and to see that all was not lost to them after all. They called a press conference that was twice as solemn as the Prime Minister’s and three times as well attended. After the various media representatives had been wined and dined regally, the head of the Royal Commission for Chilly Research called the meeting to order and made the following announcement. ‘It’s perfectly true that the Emperor is naked,’ he said. ‘We have always known this and have always chosen to ignore it, because it’s a red herring. The causes of the Emperor’s condition are many, complex, and difficult for laymen to understand—and they cannot be reduced to this single, childish notion: that he is cold because he’s wearing nothing but his birthday suit. The suggestion that warm clothing might alleviate the Emperor’s discomfort is charming and well meant but will not be recommended for implementation or further study.’ Following this announcement, the Prime Minister was dismissed for incompetence, the scholars’ grants were all renewed, and the Emperor went on shivering into a snowy old age.”

What they saw being born in their neighbors was not a new lifestyle but a new mind-set, a mindset that made us out to be as wise as the gods, that made the world out to be a piece of human property, that gave us the power of life and death over the world.

definice takerského zemědělství


“The easiest way to see it is by example. According to totalitarian agriculture, cows may live but wolves must die. According to totalitarian agriculture, chickens may live but foxes must die. According to totalitarian agriculture, wheat may live but chinch bugs must die. Anything we eat may live, but anything that eats our food must die—and not merely on an ad hoc basis. Our posture is not, ‘If a coyote attacks my herd, I’ll kill it,’ our posture is, ‘Let’s wipe coyotes off the face of the earth.’ When it came to wolves and cows, we said, ‘Let the wolves be destroyed,’ and the wolves were destroyed, and we said, ‘Let there be cows by the billion,’ and there were cows by the billion.”

Nějaké ty úryvky ;)

Na světě byly tisíce a tisíce kultur, totálně rozmanitých.
Patříme k jedné, která už skoro všechny spolykala, a proto ji často téměř implicitně považujeme za obecnou lidskou kulturu, jako by "lidé" měli a museli žít takhle.
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Confined to their own few hundred square miles, the Gebusi (kmen kanibalů z Nové Guiney) are quaint and bizarre. Blow them up into a universal world culture to which every human must belong and they become an obscenity. The same is true in general. Any culture will become an obscenity when blown up into a universal world culture to which all must belong. Confined to the few hundred square miles in which it was born, our own culture would have been merely quaint and bizarre. Blown up into a universal world culture to which all must belong, it is a horrifying obscenity.”
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I remember as a boy reading a science-fiction story about a mutant organism that was born in a drain, in the fortuitous confluence of a dib of this and a dab of that. This organism was driven by a single tropism, which was to turn living matter into itself. Unstopped, it had the capability of reversing in a few days billions of years of biological evolution by devouring all life-forms on this planet and turning them into a single form, itself This mutant organism is a perfect metaphor for our culture, which in just a few centuries is reversing millions of years of human development by devouring all cultures on this planet and turning them into a single culture, our own.”
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For the people of our culture, the fact that we’re able to defeat and destroy any other lifestyle is taken as clear proof of our cultural superiority.” (To tu bylo před chvíli doslova vysloveno.)
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And their new way to live wasn’t adopted because it was so pleasant that it was just an inevitable next step forward. What these founders of our culture fundamentally invented for us was the notion of work. They developed a hard way to live—the hardest way to live ever found on this planet.”
(a dodnes je taková, protože ať je sebevětší technický pokrok, vždycky se vymyslí víc práce ;)

ANNA: Je mi naprosto jasné, že se všichni tady pokoušíme žít jinak, a zrovna vy tři všichni fakt hodně, aktivně a inspirativně.

O tom jsem nikdy nepochybovala.

Vznikají mezi námi taková divná nedorozumění, se kterými si vůbec nevím rady, a proto se mi do toho diskutování nechce, přijde mi, že si lépe rozumíme bez diskutování.

Koukám, co se tebe týče, ani tohle jsem neměla psát. Každé slovo to jen prohlubuje, bez slov je to lepší, bez tohohle celého tě vnímám jako spřízněnou duši a někoho, koho si hluboce vážím ;)

Btw, čiště kuriozita, sluníčkář je kdo? ;D
jestli já, tak to je nejvíc lol, děkuju za poklonu, zkusím si tímhle tvým oslovením trochu prosluníčkovat den.

CONTINUITY: asi čteme každá něco jiného. mám dojem, že já a i PIZI a ENKIE (soudě dle jejich vyjádření) se pokoušíme žít jinak, než jak vypadá průměrný přístup západní kultury.
koneckonců já už jen zkouším, jestli je možnost se dohodnout, nebo jestli na mě budou sluníčkáři dále útočit a překrucovat moje sdělení, a není-li lepší se vrhnout do výroby odznáčku alternativní alternativa a dát si cigáro a nohy na stůl.